»Everyday is an adventure. That’s why you stick around. You never know what tomorrow will bring.«
Leland Sklar and Daryl Stuermer are living legends. Leland Sklar is a bass player and one of the most sought-after session musicians in the world. “Father Time”, as he is also called, has played with pretty much every big artist since the beginning of his career in 1970. He can be heard on more than 800 albums and has played on over 3000 songs. His references include Jackson Browne, Carole King, James Taylor, Toto and of course Phil Collins, for whom he has been playing since 1984 (in alternation with Nathan East, who accompanied Collins on bass in the 1990s). Sklar plays on hits like ‘Sussudio’, ‘Another Day In Paradise’ and accompanies Phil Collins on his “Not Dead Yet!” tour, which started in 2017 and is still running.
Daryl Stuermer joined Genesis in 1978 as a live guitarist. In the studio the band consisted of Tony Banks (keyboards), Mike Rutherford (guitar and bass) and Phil Collins (vocals and drums), for live performances they were joined by drummer Chester Thompson and Stuermer, who alternated guitar and bass with Mike Rutherford. When Genesis go on tour, Stuermer is the one who teaches them the songs again. When Phil Collins began his solo career in 1981, Daryl Stuermer was also involved as guitarist and is still the only constant member of Collins‘ solo band. He is also co-author of some of Collins greatest hits, such as ‘Something Happened On The Way To Heaven’.
These two musical heavyweights were ready to give our writer Phil an interview in June 2019 at Phil Collins tour stop in Cologne. For the Genesis fan a dream came true (‘Another Day In Paradise’ was his lullaby). In a very relaxed and loosed interview, Sklar and Stuermer spoke about tour life, Mike and the Mechnics as support act, working with James Taylor and almost working with Jon Anderson, how music making has changed since the beginning of their careers and where they wouldn’t play at all.
So, the gig last night was good?
Daryl: Yes! We had a great audience. They seemed to react to everything and they seemed to understand Phil!
Lee: All the shows have been going great. The audience has been really wonderful. When we played the Netherlands the night before, there was a father with his daughter right in front. The girl might have been ten years old and she sang every song. So there are not just ‘elderly’ people in the audience, but also people in their 20’s and 30’s. That’s really encouraging.
I read an interview with the German Genesis fan club from about two years ago here in Cologne. Would you have believed that you would still be on tour with Phil two years later and sit here again?
D: No! Not really!
L: I hope in two years we’ll be here again!
Do you think it’s possible?
L: Anything’s possible.
D: But there are no plans.
There’s going to be a North American tour in autumn.
D: We didn’t think we would do that again!
L: This is a priority gig for the band and the crew. If Phil‘s management asks if we have time, most everybody pushes away everything else. And we just hope that they call and ask “Can you guys make time?”
I have the feeling that it’s really good for Phil doing this, that he really enjoys it, even if his health only allows him to sit onstage and sing. It’s his life being on stage.
D: Especially after him saying that he’s retired! And then he realized he’s getting bored.
L: And his son playing drums makes a big difference. I think this has given Nic great opportunities. 16 to 18 year olds don’t get the opportunities to go out and play sold-out stadiums. So for him it’s been a great opportunity and learning process.
How has he developed as a drummer in these two years?
L: He was already a good drummer when he was a little kid.
D: When he was four years old we used to hear him play drums and thought: “Wow! Maybe he’ll be a drummer someday!” – not knowing he would be in the band! (laughing)
L: And he’s evolved a lot these past two years, also physically. When he was 16 he was thinner and now he works out. And he is stronger in his playing and more confident. It’s great. I love looking back at him every night and just thinking: “Wow!”
I wonder what he’s going to do next, because this is such a huge thing.
L: He’s got a band in Miami and he loves that band. He can do whatever he wants now. He’s got serious credentials.
How did the set list change in these past two years? Do you make suggestions? Are you involved?
D: On the first leg of the tour we did ‘Can’t Turn Back the Years’ and on the next we did ‘Inside Out’. Now we’re doing ‘Don’t Lose My Number’. ‘Can’t Turn Back the Years’ isn’t a good song for outdoor stadiums.
L: Too intimate.
D: If we played in an arena again we would probably play that song.
L: I love playing that song.
D: It’s a nice moment to calm down from all the energy.
L: They decided to add ‘Billy’ (‘Don’t Lose My Number’, note of the author) to this leg of the tour and it’s really up to Phil because there are some songs that at this point in his life are too strange to sing. And it’s a long show. You’ve got to get through all of it. But sometimes he surprises us with the songs he suggests.
By now you have played almost everything from “No Jacket Required”, I guess?
D: Yes. And we may do something different when we play in the States.
L: ‘Cause there we’ll probably play arenas.
D: All indoor arenas.
L: So we can juggle things around a bit. But once again it’s all up to Phil, whatever his mood is, but certainly you can suggest things. It’s not going to get you fired.
Daryl, how was it in 2007 with Genesis?
D: We rehearsed more songs than you actually heard in the end. You always go “Does this work, does that work?” We played ‘Abacab’ and some other things. We did ‘In Too Deep’ in rehearsals. In the end it was either ‘In Too Deep’ or ‘Hold on My Heart’, two ballads. So they picked ‘Hold on My Heart’, which I thought was the right choice.
Yeah, I think so too.
D: And I don’t know why we didn’t do ‘Abacab’. But there’s so much, you’ve got ‘Abacab’, ‘Turn It on Again’…
I don’t really see where it would fit in the set.
D: Right! I don’t either. I’m sure we could have made it fit. But maybe Phil was just tired of singing it. There were a couple of other things we did.
Mike Rutherford joined you onstage two or three times now.
L: That was fun! He’s just great to be around.
I saw the show in Hyde Park two years ago and I expected him to join the band there, because it was such a huge event.
L: When we did it we thought ‘We should have been doing this since the first show!’ The audience went crazy seeing the two of them together.
D: Now we just need to bring Tony Banks!
What are you guys up to when the tour’s over?
D: We’ve got various plans. I have a band of my own. I also play with a keyboard player, but nothing international for me.
I think your latest album was only released in America, right?
D: Yeah. It’s called “Breaking Cover”. Right now we just sell it at shows. It’s a little more exclusive that way. That’s all I’m going to be doing. Some charity events. And then we actually go back on tour with Phil.
L: We actually don’t have that much time!
D: We don’t!
Lee, what about you?
L: We’ve put this band together called The Immediate Family. It’s basically guys I’ve been playing with for fifty years. We’re kind of billing ourselves as a cover band that only plays originals (laughing). It’s great. We’re playing a festival up in Vancouver Island. And then there are a couple of other things. As soon as Phil‘s tour ends, we’re going back to New York and play a club called ‘My Father’s Place’ and then three nights at the Iridium in New York City. And then we’re doing one of those rock cruises with Roger Daltrey and Rodger Hodgson and a bunch of different people. That’ll be in February though. And then I’ve got work with Judith Owen, finishing her new album. And there’s a Dutch artist named Waylon. I think he won ‘Netherlands has talent’. I worked on his last album. And then they called me and asked if I could do his next album. So there are lots of little things. But as soon as Phil‘s tour ends, everybody will go home, settle down, and go back into their life again.
Do you have your families with you on this tour or parts of this tour?
L: It’s not really set up for it. We have a private plane and if you start letting one family member in, then everybody starts to come and needs to be accommodated.
D: And you have 14 people in the band! Imagine if everybody brought their wife and children – or dogs! (laughing)
L: It’s hard being gone from the family. But we’ll be home next Thursday and get back into home life. And then we start again in September. It’s all good.
Must be strange coming home, I think? But also nice?
D: It’s both! It’s nice to go home but it takes me about a week to acclimate to the environment.
L: Your household also has gotten used to functioning without you. And suddenly you walk in and you’re in the way on a certain level. So you have to kind of assimilate back into that. By the time everything’s back to normal you leave again! It’s hard. In 1990 we did the “…But Seriously” tour – that was a long tour! And by the time we got home from that I was like a stranger in the house.
You started off as a bass player for James Taylor in 1970. Somewhere I read this story that – I think it was on the “…But Seriously” tour – James Taylor and you broke up? “If you can’t come then I’m gonna play with somebody else?”
L: Yeah, that was in 1990.
But you did play again?
L: We did when we played the reunion with Carole King. It was a really funny thing because Russ Kunkel (drummer, note of the author) and I were on tour with Lyle Lovett and I hadn’t talked to James in like 18 years at that point. And he called Russ on the bus and needed help for the reunion gig at the Troubadour and he said “Do you think there’s any way Lee might do it?” And Russ just goes: “Ask him” and hands me the phone. He had no idea I was standing there. I so love the music we made and he I said: “Hey man, how are you doing?” And he explained to me and I said: “Are you kidding? Of course I’ll do it!” And we just did that one week at the Troubadour, but it was so successful that they booked a tour. The saddest part was that they booked an amazing European tour that was available to us and Carole said no. And everybody went like: “Are you kidding?” If James ever wanted to work again, I’d do it in a second, but I don’t think it’s ever going to happen. He’s pretty settled to the guys he’s got and that’s fine.
Daryl, we know how you got into the Genesis/Phil Collins family, but Lee, how did you end up playing with Phil?
L: I ended up with Phil because of Lee Ritenour, who I’d done tons of recording with. He was doing a solo album and he called me and asked if I played on it and when I showed up Phil was the drummer. I knew who Phil was and he knew who I was but we had never met. That must have been ’81 around the time of “Face Value”, and he asked me if could I play with him, but I said “No, I am busy with James Taylor, but if another opportunity comes along, I would really love to do it.” And then he called me in ’84 for doing “No Jacket”. We were at the Royal Garden Hotel in London and I stepped in the elevator and THIS guy (Daryl) was in the elevator. I thought ‘He looks like a musician! What are you doing here?’
D: No, we didn’t talk.
L: We didn’t know each other. By the time I got out of the elevator we realized we were both from Milwaukee. He’s Milwaukee for life. I was Milwaukee for four years, and then Los Angeles.
Did you ever play together in any other project?
D: He’s on my first solo record from 1988. Brad Cole [Phil‘s keyboard player] was playing on that as well.
L: I love recording with Daryl. His playing on his own stuff is so different than with Genesis or Phil. He writes songs. It’s not throwing some chords together and then showing off on the guitar.
D: Phil wrote some lyrics for them. A song on “No Jacket Required” called ‘I Don’t Wanna Know’ was an instrumental of mine and on “Testify” there is also a song…
‘The Least You Can Do.’
D: Yeah! Thank you! Lee played on my original, too, a song which was called ‘River of Memories’. And then Phil wrote lyrics to it and it became ‘The Least You Can Do’.
The most famous co-written one is probably ‘Something Happened on the Way to Heaven’.
D: Yes, that was co-written. Sometimes he finished one of mine or I finished one of his.
L: In our business, things just happen. You go to a gig, you meet someone, they’re backstage, and later they call you “Man, can you work on my record?” and you meet a whole bunch of new people and other things happen.
D: It’s a sort of casual networking. We’re not networking on purpose.
You guys have been in the business for decades. How is the balance between recording and playing live for you nowadays?
D: You used to go to studios together. And now you can be in different states or countries and you’re doing a record. I miss the old way.
L: I hate it. I hate it because the thing that makes music magical is the camaraderie. If we’re in the studio and he [Daryl] plays a lick I can react. If I just go to some guy’s house and sit there overdubbing bass, I can only affect the bass. I can’t affect the tempo, because you’re probably playing to a drum machine and cannot pick up if you want to. The process is completely different now. I started working in ’70. When it got going we were doing an average of 3-4 sessions a day, five-six days a week. As much as you knew you’re going to get ripped off and burned by the labels, they had a machine. They got stuff on the radio, they did promotion, they did artwork, all of these things. And now I make great records with people and as soon as they get finished they go “Any ideas what we can do with this?” This is why so many guys are on the road. This is tangible money.
D: You can’t make money with music anymore. You can, but you can’t make what you used to be able to make. So that’s why – what he said – we’re on the road. We would love it anyway! We love playing live! But we would also love having a record out that can sell. But that’s not happening. I have my record already recorded, just thinking “Well, I’ll put it out sometime. Doesn’t matter when I put it out. It’s never a good time.”
L: A lot of time you just give up the idea of bringing out a record, especially if you’ve got a website. You can just put a single or an EP on it. But with old records there was so much thought process going into it. How does Side A start? How does Side A end? How does Side B begin? When you sit there in mastering and the first song ends and you’re going “Now!” for the next song to start. I mean there were so many things beyond the artwork and all of this stuff that would go in it. It was almost like a Japanese tea ceremony, the thought that you put into it. And now you see all these kids walk around – their first musical experience is ear bugs, they’ve never really heard a good stereo, they don’t know what fidelity is – and that’s not to put them down, people get raised in different periods and they identify with that period. I feel really blessed that for me studio-wise I kind of was in the last golden age of recording. Sometimes the great accidents happen in the studio, too. There were so many projects I was working on when the band went “This thing needs a bridge!” and the band would create a bridge or “The intro sucks!” and create a new intro. Everybody was contributing. Now I just get called and go to somebody’s garage and sit with the Pro Tools rig. I do the best job I can, but it’s not inspiring.
Does Phil have any plans for writing new music?
D: I honestly don’t know. If I knew I probably couldn’t tell you, but I really don’t know.
I just saw Tony Smith (Genesis manager, note of the author), I could ask him.
Both: He doesn’t know either.
L: The thing is: This is all really just kind of guerrilla work. They just go: “Maybe at this point in time, you guys have got a couple of days here, a couple of days there.” This isn’t like the old days, when you knew when you’re going to be recording and here’s the tour. With Phil now, it’s different. He’s fragile and he’s distracted by that. If he came up with something, I’m sure he would consider calling us to work on it.
D: Or else just to clean the studio.
L: We’d get paid the same!
You both worked with so many artists, especially you, Lee. Are there still artists that you would love to work with?
D: I would love to Jean-Luc Ponty again.
Are you still in contact?
D: Yes, actually I am! He asked me to do something and I couldn’t, because I was going to be doing Phil‘s tour. And there was a band, ‘The Anderson-Ponty-Band’ with Jon Anderson and him. I couldn’t do that tour.
L: That would have been great!
D: I know. I was the first guy he called, but I couldn’t do it.
L: There are certain people, you know. I am a very limited bassist with Elton [John], but I’ve always been a huge Elton fan. I’d love to work with him. I’ve always loved Steve Winwood, but I never had the chance to work with Steve. There are always artists. I sat around so many of them and for example thought “It’d be so great to work with Joe Cocker” and then I’m working with Joe Cocker, so it’s great! It’s one of those things: There’s work for everybody. I’ve done some live gigs with Sheryl Crow. But I never had the chance to be in the studio. She’s a killer!
D: She’s so good!
L: But if that never happens it’s cool, we’re friends! You’re friends with people and for some reason the opportunity to play with them never comes around.
D: But this [working with Phil] would still be my priority, regardless.
D: And it was! I would have loved working with Jean-Luc Ponty and Jon Anderson. Maybe another time.
L: The main thing is trying to maintain your visibility in your jobs, so that when something does come along… This is, like Daryl said, one of those things: If you have some stuff planned for next February, and then Phil‘s management calls and said “We need you for a tour in Asia in February”, I would contact the other people and say “Sorry, I can’t do it.” This here would be the only thing that would make me bail on another gig.
D: With my band I have contracts to do certain gigs, but I have a 90 day period to cancel gigs. It would be for this! And I have. I cancelled a few things. I feel very loyal to Phil.
L: It’s a family.
D: Most of us are friends.
L: It would be very hard to do a gig this long if you hated each others guts.
We just talked about how recording changed over the years. How did touring change for you over the years?
D: It’s easier, because we have private planes, we have internet…
L: You don’t feel as far away from your families.
D: It is easier. And not going through a regular terminal! I mean, we do when we first arrive, but after we start the tour, we’re on our own.
L: This is a unique tour though. There are not many artists left that can command this kind of touring, but to me it’s still basically the same. When I go out with Judith Owen, we’re just in a bus. We might go to places that hold anywhere from 75 to 250 people. I love it as much as playing a stadium, if the people are into it. And she’s fabulous to work with. And when I’m working with the Immediate Family, we’re on a total budget tour. We’re just getting started. But as soon as we hit the stage we’re having so much fun and there’s friendships that go back half a century.
D: When I play with my band, we have cheap hotels, busses and vans, but I still have fun with them. And we can play to 300 people or 3000. That doesn’t matter. It’s just not going to make the money (laughing), but it’s fantastic!
After all these years on the road, do you still enjoy doing it – Both: “Yeah!” – or do you get weary and tired?
L: The tired has nothing to do with the shows. The tired is just the tedious hanging around, the waiting. You always feel this when you talk to people during the course of a tour. In the beginning, the first week of a tour, everybody’s really pumped and it’s really great and by three or four weeks a certain malaise starts. And you’re dealing with stuff at home, but you can’t help and things start to weigh on you. And then you walk out on that stage and that all disappears. We always say: We do every show for free and we get paid for killing the other hours of the day. It’s a gift.
D: We arrive at the venue at around 5 o’clock. Then we go to catering and have dinner. Then we sit around for the next three hours.
Just waiting for the show to start.
L: That’s hard.
D: It’s hard in a different way. You get bored. You start writing emails. It would be hard if we didn’t have the phone!
What did you do in the olden days?
D: We just sat around and ate. And we didn’t get fat then! But now…
It comes with age! You travel the world, you get to see the world, do you go outside?
D: There are always places that you haven’t seen.
L: I’ve never been to Warsaw. So I’m very looking forward to being there next week. I’m thrilled to go back to Prague, that’s an absolutely stunning city.
D: One of my favourites.
L: It was also great coming back here, but we spent a week here two years ago. It really depends on the schedule. Sometimes you have the time in certain cities to do things. Sometimes they put you in an exclusive hotel – Shit, I’d take the cheaper hotel if I’m in the middle of the town than being in the middle of nowhere! But we’ve been blessed with this job. Travelling the world and seeing so many things.
D: I always say that we really have nothing to complain about, but we will find things to complain about. We will!
L: The old joke: How do you get a musician to complain? Give him a gig.
Are there places where you say I wouldn’t play there? Maybe for political reasons?
L: I wouldn’t play The White House!
D: Neither would I! That’s about it! (laughing) Maybe North Korea…
L: I would be hard-pressed to go to Saudi-Arabia. We’ve played Russia – I’ve been there a few times… The only two considerations I would really ever have when thinking about if I was going to play a place or not is whether I knew in my gut that I was going to get ripped off on the gig and I don’t want to go put that much effort into something and then have your check bounce at the end and leave with a bad taste. Or the politics of it all.
D: You know, when you play a place like Russia – Ok, maybe we don’t like the politics. But the people are fine. They’re just people.
L: People are people.
D: And they would be in Saudi-Arabia too, but we don’t think they would be at the show.
L: When we played Russia with Phil, the entire front section of the audience wasn’t proletarian. And the crowd was so ready to go crazy and finally Phil badgered them to get them going and as soon as they did the whole crowd went crazy.
D: The people were in the back and you had all the rich folk down at the front.
L: It’s weird. I just did a gig at the Library of Congress – I do this show every year – and I’m looking at all these senators and I’m just thinking: “F*ck you!” It is an important event, because it is helping saving writer’s royalties… And I’m looking at these guys and as soon as I’m around them my flesh crawls. They’re just another breed of animal altogether.
I saw you in Hyde Park, I saw you in Germany. I felt and saw the difference from the audience’s point of view, but do you feel the difference between the audience for example in Great Britain and in Germany onstage?
D: Yeah, absolutely. Everywhere is a little different.
L: Absolutely. South America was unbelievable. Spain is like that too…
D: Warm countries. Germany is very good for Phil and Genesis, because they are so popular here. It’s always a good crowd.
L: And Holland was really a good crowd!
D: It sure was!
L: You never quite know. I mean when you play in Japan – I’ve played Japan a lot – they are very reserved. They’ve opened up more over the years, but in the early days, when we did the “…But Seriously”-tour we had that carousel and I remember when we were staying inside this thing in the Tokyo Dome or something and we were wondering if they had opened the doors yet and we peaked through and the place was packed. They were just sitting there and waiting. It’s just another culture. And one of the things I hate and I really hated is at all these gigs securities always make the people sit down. I mean if somebody isn’t totally disruptive and trying to jump the barricade, it’s really annoying when you see someone pushing the people back: “Sit down!” They’re just trying to have some fun. It’s really annoying.
Do you get recognized when you travel the world?
D: It depends. In the city that we’re playing, yes.
Lee, you probably get recognized a lot.
L: I do, yes. It happens everyday in the supermarket, in the airports…
D: I get recognized more when I’m with him.
L: James Taylor said that: “The only time anybody knows who I am is when I’m walking around with you.” You know, the thing I am really lucky for is I am a sideman and not an artist. So when people come up they’re not coming up freaking out like they would with Phil. They’re just coming and we talk and take pictures and they’re really happy. That’s a nice relationship. I never had a negative experience.
You probably sometimes think “Not now, leave me alone”, but I mean everybody has that.
D: You might feel like that, but that’s normal. And also it’s not going to happen the way like with Phil or Paul McCartney or somebody like that.
L: A lot of times these guys like Elvis or Michael Jackson create that themselves. They could walk around in the supermarket in sunglasses and only some people might go: “Is that…?”, but they might not confront them.
D: Michael Jackson walking around with his gloves…who else does this?
L: It’s an interesting relationship we have. I’ve always been comfortable with it. People are really nice.
So, the tour goes on in North America in September. We already talked about changes in the set list. Do you have songs that you prefer to others?
D: There are always songs that you like to play more than others.
L: Some songs we wish we could play, but for Phil it’s too much maybe.
D: I thought that I would eventually get sick of playing ‘In the Air Tonight’, but I’m not. It’s the first song he’s ever written for his first album and we recorded it in December of 1980. But it’s evolved over the years; it’s not the same song.
L: Also it’s so exciting for the audience, the anticipation and all that.
They wait for the great moment. And now it’s Nic‘s moment.
D: Yeah! So that’s a song that I can say is a favourite.
L: There’s some stuff like on “No Jacket” that would really be fun playing, but it’s not in Phil‘s scope or ability at this point. I remember sitting with him one day and he said: “The thing you forget as an artist is the day you record that song, it’s the only thing you’re doing that day.” And then suddenly you’re doing a three hour show and you have got to make that song work in it and you go “Fuck”! You’re lowering the key, because you’re shooting your whole lot in the studio. And also you can’t come to a show with an expectation of a guy being 23 years old when he’s 66. But a lot of people bitch about that. ‘He looks so old!’ Look in the mirror, asshole! And the thing I really appreciate with Phil is he recognizes his limitations and he has built the show around the things that still work for him. And you look at the audience and they’re so forgiving of any things that might not be that powerful as they once were. And the band is good!
D: And I think the other thing we really miss is – as good as Chester was, as good as Nic is – Phil‘s our favourite drummer. He is! And I miss that. These guys are doing a great job. Chester did a great job, Nic is doing a great job, but there’s something about Phil…
L: Phil is unique. When we were rehearsing in 84 or in 85 for the “No Jacket” tour we rehearsed ‘Inside Out’. And it just didn’t quite feel right. And Chester was playing exactly like the record. And finally Phil said: “Let me.” He sat down and I remember as soon as we played it we went: “Ah!” The subtlety is so huge. How can these couple of little things just make such a huge difference? When he was in his prime he was one of the most relaxed drummers. It’s like he had no bones, so loose and fluid. I love Chester, but Chester‘s very mechanical in his playing, the two are so opposite.
But I love watching them!
L: It’s great. We miss all that stuff. I always used to tell Phil: “I hate this gig! I am standing like eight feet from my favourite drummer and he’s not playing drums!” That’s frustrating.
It must be most frustrating for him!
D: It is!
L: You watch him when he’s sitting up there, he’s still got it in him.
(Sheryl Crow’s band passes.)
D: They were our support act. They’ve been a really great band and people to have around. Tonight is the seventh show with them. And Mike and the Mechanics before were great, too, because they are like family!
L: The road becomes really a bonding place because you’re stuck together. There are some guys that really swim upstream against you that you can’t stand. But they’re few and far between.
You just mentioned Chester and Tony Banks. Are you all in contact in some way?
D: Yeah, in fact I just spoke with Tony Banks‘ wife while we were rehearsing in London. I spoke with her and Tony was off in his garden. We always keep in contact. And Mike Rutherford and his wife Angela were on the road. She’s a really good friend of mine.
L: I stay in touch with Chester. I did a bass trio for Warwick (a bass manufacturing company, note of the author) with Steve Bailey and Jonas Hellborg and Chester played with us. We had a great time. I actually enjoy that more than playing with him with Phil because he was really getting to be Chester. And suddenly he was in a whole other space, loosing and smiling. You know, everybody’s still friends.
D: And I’m going to see Chester next month. In July I’m going to be in Nashville. That’s where he lives and we’re going to get together then.
L: That’s the thing: Everyday is an adventure. That’s why you stick around. You never know what tomorrow will bring. I love that aspect.
D: Yeah. I love it and hate it (laughing).